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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...exd4 in the classical (Read 14593 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #26 - 07/27/06 at 23:34:41
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But sometimes Black plays ...exd4 in the 7...Na6 lines.

It should be noted that Black would usually prefer having his pawn on e5 in such a structure to having it on d6.  That is, it's generally better to have pawn control of the d4 hole than to have an unobstructed KB.
  
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BasqueKnight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #25 - 07/27/06 at 22:51:09
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Markovich wrote on 07/27/06 at 17:41:31:
BasqueKnight wrote on 09/20/05 at 10:20:26:
In starting out the kings indian Gallagher mentions a variation in his 7th move alternatived for black it goes as folows: 1. d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7. 0-0 exd4. He later goes on to say white always seems to have a small edge in this line. I am looking at it in unbiased eyes and thining well black just wants to activate his dark squared bishop.  This looks promising. Granted with out the e pawn it will be harder to start a big pawn storm but i think it looks very playable.

What are your thoughts on this line.



I think this line is playable and well-suited to amateur chess.  Black gets a lot of piece activity in return for his spacial disadvantage and weak d-pawn.  

Also, isn't there an affinity between 7...exd4 and 7...Na6, often followed by ...exd4?

Exchanging on d4, usually with the QN on d7, is the earliest way of playing the King's Indian, both against White's Classical and Fianchetto setups.  The pioneers were Soviet players of the late 1940's and the 1950's.  The KID structure with white pawns on e4 and c4 and no d-pawn, black ones on d6 and c6 (and often, a5) and no e-pawn, Black's KB on g7, is treated extensively in Kmoch's Pawn Power in Chess, where he calls it the "Boleslavsky Wall;" it bears reading.  

The highly closed and hair-raising Mar del Plata variation did not arise until some time later.



Actaully in the Na6 on move 7 lines white plays dxe. This makes the pawn structure different.

a typical position might arise from

1.d4 nf6 2.c4 g6 3.nc3 bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Na6 8.Be3 Ng4 9.Bg5 Qe8! 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.h3 h6 12.Bd2 Nf6 13.Be3 Qe7!?

I found this in Gallaghers Starting out the Kings Indian

I dont know if I like this as much because in the Glek line my bishop is now not on guard duty of the e5 pawn.


  
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Markovich
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #24 - 07/27/06 at 17:41:31
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BasqueKnight wrote on 09/20/05 at 10:20:26:
In starting out the kings indian Gallagher mentions a variation in his 7th move alternatived for black it goes as folows: 1. d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7. 0-0 exd4. He later goes on to say white always seems to have a small edge in this line. I am looking at it in unbiased eyes and thining well black just wants to activate his dark squared bishop.  This looks promising. Granted with out the e pawn it will be harder to start a big pawn storm but i think it looks very playable.

What are your thoughts on this line.



I think this line is playable and well-suited to amateur chess.  Black gets a lot of piece activity in return for his spacial disadvantage and weak d-pawn.   

Also, isn't there an affinity between 7...exd4 and 7...Na6, often followed by ...exd4?

Exchanging on d4, usually with the QN on d7, is the earliest way of playing the King's Indian, both against White's Classical and Fianchetto setups.  The pioneers were Soviet players of the late 1940's and the 1950's.  The KID structure with white pawns on e4 and c4 and no d-pawn, black ones on d6 and c6 (and often, a5) and no e-pawn, Black's KB on g7, is treated extensively in Kmoch's Pawn Power in Chess, where he calls it the "Boleslavsky Wall;" it bears reading. 

The highly closed and hair-raising Mar del Plata variation did not arise until some time later.
  

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BasqueKnight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #23 - 07/27/06 at 02:08:53
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ok im out of retirement and was wondering if anything new has been discovered about this line? I have a tourney coming up soon so I would most appreciate if any one has seen an interesting game or 2.

1

  
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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #22 - 11/09/05 at 08:23:32
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thanks for the game Bladez have to say it was quite entertaining and i can understand how it could be underestimated.
  
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BladezII
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #21 - 11/08/05 at 23:53:38
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I still  play 7... exd4. I picked it up in 1997 when Gufeld and Kalinichenko  had their repertoire book.  To tell you the truth, even now days, few White players know how to play this.  And actually even more of them underestimate it.

I  have been able  to play it and feel comfortable with it. It  came in handy since the bayonet was beating the  classical lines with  7... Nc6.

I  prefer the ... Re8 then ...Nc6 variation.

Here's one of my old games--


White -- Moustafa, H
Black --  me

Doha, Qatar/ 1999

1. d4 Nf6
2. Nf3 g6
3. c4 Bg7
4. Nc3 d6
5. e4 O-O
6. Be2 e5
7. O-O exd4
8. Nxd4  Re8
9. f3 Nc6
10. Be3 Nh5
11. Nxc6 bxc6
12. Qd2 c5
13. Rad1 Be6
14. Nd5 Rb8
15. b3 c6
16. Nf4 Nxf4
17. Bxf4 Bd4+
18. Be3 Bxe3+
19. Qxe3 Qe7
20. f4 Bf5
21. Bf3 Bxe4
22. Bxe4 Qxe4
23. Qxe4 Rxe4
24. Rxd6 Re2

the  game was drawn

  

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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #20 - 11/08/05 at 21:20:59
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Thank you very much for that. And how is spain these days havent heard much about ETA in a while. But i hope one day that the Basques get their land back one day. I think all the viloence is ridiculous but for blood reasons i must side with the boscos.

Any way you say martin recomends this type of play? Is it on his DVD or did he write an article on it or what. Nbd7 is a great way to throw off those crazy book like folks! And i enjoy it quite a bit.

Peace to you my spanish chess brother.
  
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Alvaro
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #19 - 11/08/05 at 13:15:37
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Hello friends,

I play 7…exd4 and 7...Cbd7 like principal variations in the classical KID. My results are agree with my level (ELO 1800).

A Martin in Kings Indians battle plans: “ 7...exd4 remains an exciting option for the chess terrorist” Grin
Gallagher in Startin out: the KID: “7...exd4 is better than it was previously thought to be” 8)

The alternatives after 7...exd4 8.Nxd4 Re8 9.f3 are: 9... Cc6 (Glek), 9...Ch5 y 9...c6.

Actually, I am playing  the 9...c6 line. It works good in blitz since 10.Be3?! is a fairly common mistake (10...d5!).
After 9...c6, the more frecuent lines are:
     - 10.Kh1 Cbd7 (we can considerer too 10...a6 in Silva-Janev 0-1 Loures 2001)   
and now 11.Ag5 -Kramnik-Polgar 1-0 Dortmund 1997, Neverov-Yurtaev 0-1 Frunce1988- or 11.Af4 -Flear-Matveeva 0-1 Oakham1988, Lautier-Piket 1-0 Adelaide1988-.
     -10.Cdc2 Ca6 -Van Welly-Grigore 1/2-1/2 2003, Huzman-Epishin 1/2-1/2 1987-.

Saludos from Spain.
Excuse me my English.




  
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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #18 - 11/08/05 at 08:55:06
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Ok i was thinking with my study time being limited these days it may be a good time to play the Glek move. I would keep my study of the KID down to a minimum if there is such a thing in the KID and i would most likely be more familiar with this line than white as it is quite uncommon.

Any ones games i should really be looking at. Does some one play in this fashion all the time.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #17 - 09/30/05 at 00:28:00
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Alvaro,


Thanks for the game!  As the notes point out, White made an horrific blunder in a relatively straight-forward game.  However, the play up to that point followed what I thought was the main line.

Here's the first part of the game that Alvaro was referring to. 

Please check the website he gives for the complete notes.
GM Korneev seems to have contributed at least the introduction to the game.

28) Pogorelov,Ruslam - Valmaña,Jaime [E94]
Open 75 Aniversario Club de Alcoy (3), 2005
[IM Minzer,Claudio]

1.Cf3 Cf6 2.c4 g6 3.Cc3 Ag7 4.e4 d6 5.d4 0-0 6.Ae2 e5 7.0-0 exd4 Dentro de la Defensa India de Rey Clásica, el negro elige tomar en el centro creando un "pequeño centro" con ventaja de espacio para el primer jugador.

8.Cxd4 Te8 9.f3 c6 Cuidando el control de las casillas centrales, el negro no descarta romper en el centro con ...d6-d5.

10.Rh1 Saliendo de la peligrosa diagonal g1-a7.

10...Cbd7 11.Ag5 Con la torre en "e8" las blancas no pueden desarrollar su alfil de casillas negras por "e3" debido que estaría expuesto ante la ruptura central ...d6-d5.

11...h6 Obligando al alfil a retroceder he "impidiendo" un desarrollo normal con Dd2.

12.Ah4 [Después de 12.Ae3 d5 (MT) las negras no tienen problemas.]

12...Ce5 Diagrama





Hasta aquí una típica partida de India de Rey con un pequeño centro donde las negras están expectantes en una restringida pero sólida posición, una postura muy parecida a un Sistema erizo.

13.Dd2? Llega el error temático en la posición, precisamente el avance 11...h6, como menciona anteriormente, tiene como objetivo evitar este desarrollo blanco. Es sorprendente que un gran maestro caiga víctima de este tema táctico. [Veamos algunas continuaciones teóricas: 13.Dc2 g5 14.Af2 c5 apoderándose del dominio de las casillas negras 15.Cb3 Ae6 16.Tfd1 De7 con buen juego para las negras Chekhov,V-Yurtaev,L/Frunze 1988; 13.Cc2 Ae6 14.Ce3 g5 15.Af2 De7 16.Dd2 Tad8 17.Tad1 Ch5 18.Cf5 Axf5 19.exf5 Cf4 20.Tfe1 d5= Burgess,G-Matveeva,S/Prestwich 1990; 13.f4 Ceg4 14.Axg4 Axg4 15.Dd3 Ac8 16.Tae1 Dc7 17.h3 Cd7 18.Dd2 Da5 19.e5 dxe5 20.f5 g5 21.Ag3 Cf6 1/2-1/2 Wells,P-Gallagher,J/Scarborough 2001; 13.Tc1 g5 14.Af2 d5 15.exd5 cxd5 16.c5 a6 17.b4 Ch5 18.Te1 Cf4 19.Af1+/= /= 1/2-1/2 Shariyazdanov,A-Kokarev,D/St Petersburg 2001]

13...Cxe4! Aprovechando la indefensión del alfil de "h4". Las negras cambian su caballo por el importante alfil de casillas negras y el peón-e4 a cambio del de "d6" recuperando espacio.

14.Cxe4 Dxh4 15.Cxd6 Td8-/+ Los caballo en la columna-d están inestables ante la presión del negro. Ahora Pogorelov intenta sostener el caballo-d6 con el avance del peón-c, pero éste también queda débil.

16.c5 Cd7 Diagrama
  
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Alvaro
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #16 - 09/29/05 at 11:50:46
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Hello friends,

Game of September where White (GM Pogorelov) is defeated by no tittled player with Spanish comments (MI Minzer):
           http://www.inforchess.com/notas/alcoy01.htm

Saludos
  
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MNb
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #15 - 09/25/05 at 17:00:21
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 o-o 6.Be2 e5 7.o-o exd4 8.Nxd4 Re8 or
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.c4 Bg7 6.Nc3 Bg7 7.Be2 Nf6 8.o-o Re8 9.f3 Nc6 10.Be3 Nh5 11.Qd2 (11.f4 is possible too; 11.Nc2 f5 12.Qd2 Be6 13.Rad1 f4!? Notkin-Nevostrujev, RUSch 1996) Nf4. In practice 12.Rfd1 has been a killer, but maybe Black's position is not that bad after Bxd4 13.Bxd4 Nxd4 or Qg5 14.Bf1 Nxd4.
White has many other 12th move options.

The other Black setups are with Na6 or Nbd7, but then the question arises: why not 7...Na6 or 7...Nbd7 first and only exd4 at a more appropriate moment?
  

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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #14 - 09/24/05 at 23:27:59
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Quote:
Since you wanted a general answer I will keep it vague. The reason exd4 is not considered particularly good is because in order to get active play you would need to weaken d5 and often d6 (by c5 or c6) and aim for queenside play (see some Bronstein games) often sacrificing the d6 pawn.


Heh i started playing the kings indian old bronstien style and so i am a ware of the d6 pawn but thats somthing im will ing to accept if i am getting to attack both sides of the board.

In the sicilian say Najdorf this is a possiblity as well. If you play d6 with c5 and e5 then d6 is potentially week. But for it you get amazing counter play wouldnt you agree?

So no its not bad thing and you also said its not neccesarily a bad thing but for those unfamiliar with our opening its a concession one should be willing to make in order for the violence to bear fruit.
  
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #13 - 09/21/05 at 13:57:21
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What is considered best play for each side in this line? And is there a way for black to get in d6-d5 (after suitable preparation, i.e. ...c6, ...Re8), even if white plays book moves? Also, I thought Gallagher said something (in "starting out:kings indian") along the lines of these 7. ...exd4 lines not being as bad as their reputation, and he would not be surprised if black players began turning back to it if white continued to score well with the bayonet. Also I think he said the 8. ...Nc6 lines were promising?(I'm just paraphrasing what I thought I read when I was browsing in the book store a few months back...which is a roundabout way of saying I could be completely wrong!) . Can anyone confirm or deny?
Also, in Bronstein's "Zurich 1953", doesn't he go into detail on this position in the first KID game in the book (one of the first 10 games, don't remember which). Or maybe the position was slightly different?

Thanks,

Kevin
  
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #12 - 09/21/05 at 10:29:00
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Since you wanted a general answer I will keep it vague. The reason exd4 is not considered particularly good is because in order to get active play you would need to weaken d5 and often d6 (by c5 or c6) and aim for queenside play (see some Bronstein games) often sacrificing the d6 pawn. This is not a bad idea in itself, only in lines like the classical white has been developing without really finalising his set-up, so he can better react to black particular actions. When you compare this with the fianchetto it is quite clear how white will want to setup, so counterplay is easier to aim.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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